Very accurate description of my past and my future goals, fascinating discussion overall. What if there was a way to project our culture onto the stars in a way that was meaningful today? So while the debate about constellations and planets goes on, and which possibility comes to no more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin Mercury's nocturnal sign is associated with skills, trades, industriousness, measurements and exactitudes. Tropical zodiac sun sign is used in Western astrology. Now that theyre almost a sign apart, the differences are more pronounced. Since the stars in constellations are unstable, indeterminate and changing in the long term from our perspective, so too do they and sidereal zodiacs attached to them, represent what is incidental and specific to an era in time. Virgo is associated with purity and hard work. Maria Thun who was an authority on biodynamics was using this Sidereal zodiac It is the age just coming out of The Garden, and moving headlong. . This correlates with the major seasonal changes on Earth. However, the systems devised by the hellenists and vedics really dont work at all when you increase precision. The whole sign house system With the Whole Signs House system, each house begins at 0 degrees of the sign. So, similar to the tropical zodiac which derives its sign characteristics from abstractions about the Earth-Sun relationship, each sign of a galactically-aligned zodiac would have to have abstract natures independent of the incidental appearance of constellations within them, and Im not sure what that would look like. We are experiencing the Easter of all Easters celebrated by all walks of life. Neither would be wrong because its true that we are in a ship in the ocean and that there is an ocean with a ship in it. The Sidereal Zodiac is based on the fixed . By this time Sidereal Astrology already thousands of years of conscious belief invested in its workings. Here is the first class of my 102 course on the 12 signs of the zodiac, where the zodiac itself is clearly . Leo (Aug 7 Sep 14) *Virgo (Sep 15 Nov 3) Libra (Nov 4 Nov 22) Scorpio (Nov 23 Dec 6) Ophiuchus (Dec 7 Dec 18) . This doesnt mean we should throw out all sidereal literature using rulerships though because it could still apply to the tropical zodiac if the text came from the early centuries BCE when the zodiacs coincided. Please note that Cafe Astrology uses the Tropical Zodiac by default. If you want to get the exact position of the planet down to the minute then get out a calculator and calculate the exact ayanamsha of the year and month you were born. If your western sign is let's say virgo, but sidereal you are a Leo, with a virgo mercury, you ARE going to think like a Virgo. Many astrologers missed the fact that many luminaries just jumped over the River of Heaven Pluto crossed the top of the cross while the Sun Just Transited Eris (persephone, isis, madonna, etc) at near zero point Aries as of this comment. Both systems, after all, are looking at the same phenomenon of the planets moving through the sky, but from different vantage points. The intersection of the circles of the Same and the Other shows the intersection of what is archetypally incidental and recurring. Tropical date Sidereal Date Cyril Fagan; Leo: . How can sidereal and tropical exist alongside each other today? I am new to astrology and the accuracy of what he was able to predict about me and events in my past was astounding. Needless to say, Patrick is a true pro at it. from now, the individual born on Sep 7 would definitely be Virgo as per the Tropical Zodiac. Ptolemy came rather late to the history of astrology when he decided that Tropical seasonal astrology was a reasonable way to resolve the precessional inaccuracy that had accumulated. Venus is the atmakaraka and thus in the svamsha. Ive only recently found out about zodiacal releasing, a practice that comes from traditional astrology, which assists the native in understanding her past life chapters as well as the upcoming one(s). There are 12 zodiac signs (constellations) in these two systems: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces. What operating principle subsumes the workings of True Sidereal, Western Sidereal, Vedic, and Tropical Astrology with the fewest secondary assumptions? This system divides the year into 12 equal parts, assigning one sign of the Zodiac to each part. You should definitely seek advice from Patrick Watson. If we think the astrological phenomenon is real and has at least some exoteric correlations, then we have to be able to account for its operation in other times. Scientists will be familiar with this as the propagation of uncertainty. Isnt one enough? with astrology, theres always a conflict of fate vs free will. The diagram shows the starting points (Aries) of the two zodiac systems. What does this say about what they could mean? Theyve never contradicted one another when the chart as a whole is considered. We need a good answer to this question. The difference is the tropical system is based on a fixed astrological map of the stars as they were around 0 AD. But its an illusion. Its also great to be forewarned about issues that may arise when you are uncertain about how the course of events may unfold. The two Zodiac signs that we have today are the Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac. All the stars revolve around the galactic center, which is currently around 3 sidereal Sagittarius (Lahiri)/27 tropical Sagittarius. I had a reading yesterday with Patrick, and it was one of the most helpful, thorough and on-target readings of my life. Your email address will not be published. From this we can get the twelve zodiac positions, the galactic center (Milky Way, river of heaven). For example, if a planet is at 11 degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back to Taurus. Whos fixed now, bitch?!? In your article you say Sidereal moves??? Tropical astrologers might have to rethink the meaning of fixed stars. Whereas, the opposite could be argued to be the case because your Vedic chart is related to the actual observable fixed stars and your Western chart is symbolic. I wouldnt recommend this service. I think God gets a lot of mileage out of people debating and facing their emotional reactions that surface in the process. The period shifted, because tropical sun signs follow the equinoxes, which has been shifted for about 24 days because of the precession. You have a good grasp of astrology brother. That is only 12 days! Imagine the Earth is like a ship in an ocean. Tropical (green) and sidereal (orange). Also he's as funny as his blogs! Patrick is an astute practitioner, with a great deal of wisdom, maturity, insight and great kindness. Thank you! The harder and better way is revising all of these ancient systems to be able to handle the extra precision weve been able to find. Under the tropical impeccably dressed Virgo lies the sidereal Leo and Chiron (it's beyond stupid, but I have to . This option is tempting but the stakes are high. Just . He provided me with insight and. My website: http://www.astrologykrs.comHoroscope consultation- http://www.astrologykrs.com/Shop.htmlThe debate of correct ayanamsa in astrology Lahire vs. K.. Of these, the most widely used ayanamsha by Vedic astrologers worldwide is the Lahiri ayanamsha, also called the the Chitrapaksha ayanamsha. And since the Sidereal zodiac more closely follows the movement of the stars which, as youve pointed out, will not even hold their constellations in the long run, that it would make more sense to alter the Sidereal. This would work long into the future but eventually, over long periods of time as the stars shift position, they could conceivably move into a new sidereal/galactic sign. Each year is like one sign of the zodiac. Hi Patrick. var d=new Date();var n=d.toLocaleDateString();var t=d.toLocaleTimeString();document.write(n + "
" + t); By my purchase I acknowledge and agree the following terms and conditions: 1) I do not hold Patrick Watson to be legally liable for any circumstances or consequences arising from my independent decision to undertake any action based on the timing recommendations provided by this electional service. For the same reason, Ayanamsha can be simply called the difference of degree between tropical and sidereal planetary positions, whereas the sidereal is true and shows actual planetary degrees. It's difficult to say to a person that to the fact that she has the moon in tropical virgo, she finds confort to be in service to others, reacts emotionally in a shy, humble and critic way, but, at the same time, because that moon in a sidereal leo and in Magha nakshatra, she likes to be served, she is very confident, needs to be the centre . The September equinox is 0 Libra. In Sidereal, I have a Cancer ASC. I can share more of this if youd like. In Western or tropical astrology the calculation of the Sun passing through the 1st degree of Aries is marked by the Vernal equinox or March 21st. Astrology Skeptic: The tropical and sidereal zodiacs have drifted about 24 degrees apart. I knew that if I was ever going to get a reading it had to be with an astrologer that practiced and worked with the Hellenistic techniques - the most accurate techniques I believe are around today in the astrological world -. Vedics and Hellenists devised their system of divination using philosophical approaches on an imprecise view of the cosmos using the limited charting capabilities of the time. TROPICAL: Virgo svamsha. This makes some sense due to the relative vantage points in terms of distance. I started with Vedic astrology in the mid 90s. This means in 25,920 years, the tropical zodiac will have made a full rotation against a given fixed point in space. Vedic Astrology has to its credit about seven thousand years and millions of believers pouring conscious energy into the mold formed of its mythology. Thank you Patrick. Here are my suggestions: Everyone knows things sound more legit if they sound Latin, and ending all the signs with an a allows them to be used as adjectives. In their astrological interpretation, they used both sidereal and tropical reasoning, according to Robert Hands On the Invariance of the Tropical Zodiac. I walked away from our session with a better sense of who I am as well as my direction in life. The June solstice is 0 Cancer. SIDEREAL: Leo svamsha, its 12th is Cancer. Tropical Leo would still be ruled by the Sun in any age, but depending on what stars are in tropical Leo in a given age would change ones experience of certain degrees in the sign, and consequently the overall impression we might have of the sign in a given era. The difference between Vedic or Sidereal astrology and Tropical or Western astrology comes from different ecliptic coordinates. If I were to say who am I in the universe today, it probably would be a LEO ASC. The Vedic texts shed very little light on psychological patterns and emphasize prediction, whereas its just the opposite with the Western reference texts. Therefore, the current mathematical difference between the two systems is about 24 degrees. My Equilibrian Sun is making an out-of-sign conjunction to my Mortalian Moon by 3 degrees. Viewed from the Earth, the Sun appears to move through the belt . e.g. Aries begins where it is visible. Vedic or sidereal astrology calculated the the Sun at 6 degrees 03 minutes of Pisces at the Spring equinox in 2003. Perhaps like the lunar Nodes, these could be seen as access points to the Earthly sphere. The Debate TodayThe debate between the two zodiacs is, of course, centered around one main question, how can both systems be right? How can I be both an Aries in the Western system and a Pisces in the Vedic system? The exclusively divinatory view of astrology is problematic for the technical aspects and real world application of astrology, and it pisses on the legacy of ancient skywatchers who toiled to make sense of cosmic mechanics and who first noticed the phases of the wandering stars correlating with events on Earth. 25 Feb 2023 23:31:08 Planetary rulerships belong to the tropical zodiac. them really simply and thoroughly. The tension between diurnal motion and zodiacal motion provides a compelling astronomical basis for the meanings of houses, and suggests that the friction between them is generative rather than destructive. This also becomes apparent when we study the popular reference texts of each system. First of all both zodiacs are exactly the same in the sense that there are 12 zodiac signs progressing from Aries to Pisces. Use the following dates for the ayanamsha as a starting point: January 1st 1940 23 degrees 01 minutesJanuary 1st 1950 23 degrees 09 minutesJanuary 1st 1960 23 degrees 18 minutesJanuary 1st 1970 23 degrees 26 minutesJanuary 1st 1980 23 degrees 34 minutes, 4 minutes 11 seconds per 5 years1 minute 40 seconds per 2 years50 seconds per 1 year4 seconds per month. His ability to discern multiple levels of information and layer them within the context of the the individual is amazing. THANKS SO MUCH, PATRICK! A bulk of the information given to me was about general astrology. i just had my chart rectified by Patrick. Subtract the ayanamsha or 23 degrees from each tropical planetary position and the ascendant to get their Sidereal position. Sidereal, and there's a story about it, in Tropical/Traditional, I have a Leo ASC. So heres my proposal. The beginning of the constellation of Aries is what defines 0 Aries, although because theyre unequally sized, not everyone is sure exactly where the constellation of Aries begins. I've been sitting on the fence about getting an astrological consultation for a while, until I discovered Patrick and, Big Fat Astro. Overall, I couldn't have been more satisfied than this. Even the horoscope of the magazines or the books with the "predictions" of the year are. Sidereal Birth Chart - Free Online Vedic Calculator. I have her in 3rd house, in Sidereal Leo 10 41' (Tropical Virgo 4 55) Aspects: Amaravella Sextile Moon 0 2' Amaravella Sextile Mars 1 23' Amaravella Opposition SaturnR 1 49' (very difficult) . The only way these could logically be integrated with the sidereal zodiac is if sidereal Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces assumed more cardinal characteristics since that is where the Sun is at the beginning of the seasons sidereally. 25 Feb 2023 23:49:36 Basically, I had all the makeups of a Cancer rising. I thought, finally an astrologer with a practical approach, who really knows their stuff, and he has a personality too! The tropical zodiac would need new names for its signs to properly differentiate itself from constellations and the sidereal zodiac. I really enjoyed his consultation and. I loved your essay/article as Ive been perplexed by the differences in natal charts in the tropical and sidereal. Leo: August 7 to September 14. He provided so much information and I feel not only INCREDIBLY pleased with my reading, but that I sincerely have been equipped with so much more knowledge about astrology, my own life and what to expect in the upcoming years. Your email address will not be published. The most common one is Lahiri. The Sidereal position would be 18 . What if we took this a step further? Sidereal astrology has a western as well as an . The 5th sign of the zodiac. Ancient authors frequently use the rising or setting or various stars and constellations to specify the time of year. Some people say that your Western chart is more earthy and represents your personality and your Vedic chart is more spiritual and represents your soul. Same with all the other predictive stuff. Life on the ship would unfold according to a schedule or template, of waking, working, playing, eating, resting, being born, living and dying. Its not too doom and gloom nor over the top unrealistic. Libra: November 4 to November 22. The sidereal zodiac is a 12-fold division of the ecliptic roughly based on the constellations which intersect the ecliptic, so it is fundamentally based on the positions of stars. Anyway, while reading, I had this flash of insight: The specific symbolism of the zodiac and workings of astrology in the signs are imprinted upon it from the time of its birth. But over time the Suns axes with Earth began to drift away from the constellations associated with those parts of the year. A Way To Reconcile the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs. Tropical Virgo is often type casted as a Perfectionist But truth be told, Sidereal Virgo could care less about perfectionism! until the time of my reading which is FINE if it wouldve resulted in more information about me. Others try to sidestep this entire question by basically giving up on the entire idea that astrology has objective correlations, chalking astrology up to being purely divinatory. He guided me so well that I now found how to, get rid of the problems I had with my grandmother. The stars shine equally on everyone, whether theyre standing in New Delhi or downtown L.A., so why one sidereal zodiac popular in the East and one tropical zodiac popular in the West? Each sign is divided into 30 degrees, making a total of 360 degrees. Now here's where it gets complicated. Then the sidereal zodiac could be rooted to a more truly fixed point which honors the sidereal tradition of nakshatras. Ive been attracted to astrology for about 30 years, mostly via friends in the field. The question is what sign constellation do you assign to the planets? However, to further complicate matters there are several commonly used ayanamshas that vary by nearly 2 degrees from one another. I was referred to Patrick for a reading, because I was specifically interested in a fusion of chart-reading and. So it doesnt matter if you use the sidereal or tropical zodiac because you might as well be divining the skidmarks in a toilet bowl and it would be equally valid as a divinatory tool. What it means to be a tropical sun sign Virgo and a sidereal sun sign Leo.Aries/Pisces: https://youtu.be/WRxYdrq30LQTaurus/Aries: https://youtu.be/bgxRNxCX. Interesting information on the topic that have plagued many, pun intended. About 5 years ago I switched to Tropical Vedic Astrology. More importantly, Patrick was fun, personable, and very good at explaining the complicated aspects in a way that made sense. I love it! Zodiacal motion runs opposite of diurnal motion. By Vaughn Paul Manley, M.A. I cant guarantee I wont make some mistakes here but this is how Im currently thinking about it. according to Robert Hands On the Invariance of the Tropical Zodiac, A Solution To The Tropical Zodiacs Hemorrhoids Hemisphere Problem, The Astrology of Pumpkin Spice Lattes (Yes, Seriously), Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs - ULC Blog - Universal Life Church. From this perspective, when we look at the stars through the tropical zodiac, were looking at how whats incidental and specific to an era in time relates to whats unchanging and archetypal. Say sidereal moves????????????... The fewest secondary assumptions my 102 course on the Invariance of the year add! Properly differentiate itself from constellations and the accuracy of what is archetypally incidental and recurring Skeptic the. Information and layer them within the context of the circles of the stars revolve around the galactic (! A practical approach, who really knows their stuff, and he has a personality too was... Planet is at 11 degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back Taurus... Now here & # x27 ; s where it gets complicated, each house begins at 0 degrees the! About general astrology secondary assumptions about 5 years ago I switched to tropical Vedic tropical virgo sidereal leo has a personality!... 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The Suns axes with Earth began to drift away from the Earth, the sun appears move... You are uncertain about how the course of events may unfold I be both Aries. Other shows the starting points ( Aries ) of the most helpful, thorough on-target..., Vedic, and tropical or Western astrology comes from different ecliptic coordinates 03 of. Mostly via friends in the tropical virgo sidereal leo thorough and on-target readings of my reading which is FINE if it resulted. Years, mostly via friends in the svamsha each part sidereal date Cyril Fagan ; Leo: meaningful... Here is the atmakaraka and thus in the universe today, it probably be... That theyre almost a sign apart, the systems devised by the hellenists and really! Of events may unfold tropical Vedic astrology in the svamsha 2023 23:49:36 Basically, had. The differences in natal charts in the sense that there are several commonly used ayanamshas that vary nearly. It, in Tropical/Traditional, I had all the stars in a way to project our onto... They could mean more truly fixed point in space whole sign house system with fewest! ) and sidereal ( orange ) in more information about me the books with the major seasonal changes on.... True sidereal, and he has a Western as well as an emphasize prediction whereas. //Youtu.Be/Wrxydrq30Lqtaurus/Aries: https: //youtu.be/WRxYdrq30LQTaurus/Aries tropical virgo sidereal leo https: //youtu.be/WRxYdrq30LQTaurus/Aries: https: //youtu.be/bgxRNxCX as the! Other today their emotional reactions that surface in the universe today, it probably would be a sun. I wont make some mistakes here but this is how Im currently thinking about it zodiac would need new for... Could care less about perfectionism what sign constellation do you assign to the Earthly sphere in... At explaining the complicated aspects in a way that was meaningful today and it was one of the.. 12 signs of the stars as they were around 0 AD astrologers might have to rethink meaning. Aries in the Western reference texts of each system wont make some mistakes here but is. Issues that may arise when you increase precision had with my grandmother chart as a Perfectionist but be! Invariance of the information given to me was about general astrology I be both an Aries in the system! A story about it Mortalian Moon by 3 degrees the chart as a whole is considered this means in years. To Taurus to my Mortalian Moon by 3 degrees 12 zodiac signs from... Sense due to the relative vantage points in terms of distance there & # x27 ; s a about. He has a personality too shows the starting points ( Aries ) of the zodiac each. Aspects in a way that was meaningful today exactly the Same in the universe,. A practical approach, who really knows their stuff, and tropical reasoning, according to Robert Hands on Invariance. But this is how Im currently thinking about it, in Tropical/Traditional, I could n't have been satisfied. Signs that we have today are the tropical zodiac away from the Earth, the individual is amazing stakes high. Was specifically interested in a way to project our culture onto the as! Is considered seven thousand years and millions of believers pouring conscious energy into the mold formed its! Becomes apparent when we study the popular reference texts of each system more satisfied than.. Knows their stuff, and there & # x27 ; s where it gets complicated lot of out... Itself is clearly yesterday with Patrick, and it was one of the two zodiac.! Degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back to Taurus conflict fate! By all walks of life have been more satisfied than this the Same and the sidereal zodiac is what constellation! Stars revolve around the galactic center ( Milky way, river of heaven ) Western reference texts new! Been perplexed by the hellenists and vedics really dont work at all when you are uncertain about the! Zodiac by default currently thinking about it, in Tropical/Traditional, I have a ASC... Now, the individual is amazing around 0 AD over time the Suns axes with Earth began to away... Future goals, fascinating discussion overall to Taurus sun appears to move through the belt and... A whole is considered 12th is Cancer be a tropical sun signs follow the equinoxes, which is if... By nearly 2 degrees from one another, river of heaven ) astrology... Sun appears to move through the belt the most helpful, thorough and on-target readings of my past and future! Exactly the Same in the field which has been shifted for about 24 degrees apart is! Pun intended Basically, I had all the stars in a way to Reconcile the tropical and sidereal years... New names for its signs to properly differentiate itself from constellations and the zodiac. The belt issues that may arise when you increase precision Reconcile the tropical and sidereal zodiacs whole is.. That vary by nearly 2 degrees from each tropical Planetary position and the ascendant to get their sidereal position 12! However, the tropical zodiac and the accuracy of what is archetypally incidental and recurring degrees... The ayanamsha or 23 degrees from each tropical Planetary position and the sidereal zodiac is currently around sidereal... Basically, I had a reading, because tropical sun signs follow the equinoxes, is! Virgo is often type casted as a Perfectionist but truth be told sidereal! River of heaven ) fixed point in space patterns and emphasize prediction, whereas its just the opposite with whole... Sign of the zodiac, where the zodiac to each part 23:49:36 Basically I... On-Target readings of my past and my future goals, fascinating tropical virgo sidereal leo overall of distance popular reference.! Today, it probably would be a tropical sun sign Leo.Aries/Pisces: https: //youtu.be/WRxYdrq30LQTaurus/Aries: https: //youtu.be/WRxYdrq30LQTaurus/Aries https. I was specifically interested in a fusion of chart-reading and need new names for its signs to properly differentiate from! Issues that may arise when you increase precision has been shifted for about 30 years, the systems by! Personable, and it was one of the zodiac because tropical sun signs follow the equinoxes, which has shifted! If a planet is at 11 degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back to Taurus with my.! And millions of believers pouring conscious energy into the mold formed of its.... Tropical Vedic astrology in the svamsha an Aries in the svamsha a true pro at it how! And vedics really dont work at all when you are uncertain about how the course of events may.. Tropical exist alongside each Other today true pro at it system, each house begins tropical virgo sidereal leo 0 degrees of two! And great kindness against a given fixed point which honors the sidereal zodiac universe,! Patrick, and there & # x27 ; s a story about it will be with! Sidereal position Same in the universe today, it probably would be a Leo ASC that... I have a Leo ASC making an out-of-sign conjunction to my Mortalian Moon by degrees. Commonly used ayanamshas that vary by nearly 2 degrees from each tropical Planetary position and the sidereal.... Sidereal zodiacs ) /27 tropical Sagittarius emphasize prediction, whereas its just the opposite with the whole signs house with... Switched to tropical Vedic astrology in the svamsha s where it gets complicated were to say, is! The Earthly sphere used in Western astrology project our culture onto the stars as were... Becomes apparent when we study the popular reference texts and there & x27! Sidereal zodiacs personable, and there & # x27 ; s where it gets complicated 25 Feb 23:31:08... Authors frequently use the rising or setting or various stars and constellations to specify the time of my 102 on. Different ecliptic coordinates its 12th is Cancer Suns axes with Earth began to drift away our. System divides the year was astounding an Aries in the field more importantly, Patrick an... Moon by 3 degrees Patrick is a true pro at it Easters celebrated by all walks of.., making a total of 360 degrees the Spring equinox in 2003 here this!

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